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Mac Posted - 21/07/2011 : 19:24:48
Now I know that religion is a starter of wars, arguments and can be the terminator of relationships, but I have myself been struggling with this one for some time, around the 27th of July 2009 to be precise and ever since. With my lovely Mum now in hospital suffering at the hands of some unknown ailment my doubt just deepens.

I am wondering if you wish to share certain things....
Do you believe in God?
Which one?
Why?
Why not?
Any additional comments?

We are blessed in this community by having a wonderfully diverse membership in their thinking and so hopefully this will be of interest to many and a threat to none.
15   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Mac Posted - 06/06/2017 : 21:46:58
I have long admired your belief, faith and the strength you have shown us all so beautifully Bobbie. Any soldier would be both privileged and proud to have your courage and determination, and to find learning in what you have experienced is wonderful.
May your god go with you always x
bobbie Posted - 02/05/2017 : 09:01:17
I believe in God: I thnk there is more in heaven and earth. Speaking ONLY FOR MYSELFC AND NO ONE ELSE I also believe I have Parkinsons' to teach me somethinhg - which it has, definitely.
Mac Posted - 31/07/2012 : 11:21:12
A great word Taffy and one we should all do our best to practice; this world would be a far more peaceful place if we had much more of it.

A topic of discussion around such an emotive subject is a risky thing to start, but I believe that due to how we feel and the respect we have for each other, it is a safe road to travel. Perhaps the ethics and respect and so on that we show/give to each other should be the foundation of any religion...
SapperG Posted - 23/07/2012 : 15:27:07
Hello All,
I occasionally click on to this section of the Forum and have read many of the views put forward with an open mind. I must say it is good that we can share such thoughts in the Spirit of friendship and hopeful discovery.
I think it is in the nature of Mankind to ask questions of the unknown, the possible, the probable and indeed all known aspects of life/existence as we percieve it. This is how we advance our knowledge.
I personally come from a home which encompassed the tenets of Christianity within the Laws of the Land. My Father was a non-practicing Roman Catholic and my Mother had a tenuous connection with Church of Scotland. Neither of my dear Parents pressurised either myself or my 3 Sisters in any way, in regard to Church attendance and Religious teachings.
I am Roman Catholic and my introduction to the Church was through my formative years at school. I do not intend to elaborate too much other than to say, I do believe we are influenced by background in regard to religious belief structures, however I believe we must make a distinction between Religion and Faith.
I am a voluntary helper at our local Catholic Church and I am exposed to the teachings of Catholicism on a daily basis. I witness both the good side and the not so good of organised Religion at first hand.
It is through the aspect of Faith that good things come to pass, genuine belief in the hearts and minds of Parishioners in regard to their reason for being. The mechanics of providing a place of worship and the upkeep of such huge organisations as the Vatican, will undoubtedly lead to accusation of financial abuse and power. This is true of most Religions though not always apparent.

Strip away all of the trappings and only true Faith would survive.
This manifests itself in many ways, my own Faith has grown as a consequence of circumstances which I have been exposed to, as I am sure have your own conclusions on life.
I am aware of all the Scientic reasoning behind existence, I am also aware that many prominent scientists including Einstein, believed in a God figure. Indeed the Vatican has one of the most advanced scientific research centres available.

My own Faith is able to embrace all scientific discovery and make allowances for man's need to ascribe in written form that which is beyond words (Much like my Poetry).
For instance I do not think it is possible to fully comprehend the enormity of God or that our minds are capable of comprehending the existence of nothing (prior to the Big Bang). I personally pefer to live my life in complete Faith of a creator who has provided Man with the pecious gift of free will and it is the abuse of this wonderful gift which continues to undermine life itself. Be it in the name of Religion or Political Power, we always question the existence of God as a result of 'Man's inhumanity to Man' through our abuse of 'free will'. Sickness and tragedy which affects us all, may sadly be the natural order of things which I am unable to explain. I personally try to embrace all belief systems and those who choose a different path. I have Faith that we are all Brothers and Sisters on this journey together.
God Bless,
Richard
Kale Posted - 29/08/2011 : 15:50:16
Hi Everyone

It is fascinating to read everyone's personal views on this topic in a non biased, adult manner.... thank you Mac for posting it.

In answer to the questions put, here are my views.

Do I believe in God?

No, but I do believe in Angels and the afterlife especially after the many books I have read on the subject. I do believe that we are born with our life path mapped out already and that what we face throughout our life are lessons we choose before we were born and that by the choices we make, determines whether we achieve our destiny. I believe that 'gut instincts' or 'intunition' are our guardian Angels way of keeping us on our life's path, whilst I have read that they cannot interfere with our own free will, they can give us a gentle nudge from time to time.

I also believe that we all have a time pre-set when we will cease to be... in other words, we will die. For some, they will live to be of a good age, for others sadly less and some will die peacefully and others in more tragic ways.

I understand the argument where loved ones are struck down with debilitating illness such as cancer... where one's faith is questioned. Who knows, maybe this has been written in their life's plan... only time will tell.

One thing I do believe is that when we do die, no one ever dies alone, loved ones and angels will accompany us to our resting place where there will be only peace, harmony and no more suffering.

Love and hugs

Kale xxx
taffy Posted - 27/07/2011 : 20:09:13
Hello, One word that many religeons seem not to consider or at least rarely mention is EMPATHY i think this word covers most of my feelings on the subject of religeon. taffy
Krazus Posted - 27/07/2011 : 19:47:42
Hi Jan,

its excellent that you will continue to enjoy FLOW. I think this 'expansion' is a good idea, and im very impressed with everyones expressions so far.
I think its excellent that you and your hubby have your beliefs, we are all entitled to our own way of thinking.
My own comment on the belivers wanting to burn me was not aimed at all believers of any faith, and i hope it wasnt taken that way, rather on a select few i have come across who are indeed very forceful in denouncing the 'unfaithful'

If i may be able to elaborate a little, my fathers family (all brothers and one sister) all married Catholics except my father. Now when I go to see them a particular Aunt and her son will insist on calling me by my full 'Christian' name of Christopher, which only my wife and mother use when I have not exactly shone in their eyes. But no amount of polite request to not use the full name and to reduce to Chris will do any good, and I get the threatening comments of going to hell for not believing, and being told my aunt who took her own life will be for ever in purgatory.

My second 'example' is that while serving in the RAF and on my trade training, once a week was set aside for religious 'study', which if you were catholic, consisted of going and sitting with a friendly nun with coffee/tea and biscuits having a good chin wag. however everyone else what ever their denomination, even Atheists, had to sit through an hour video of Simon Mayo spouting off about god, now for me it felt like brain washing and a rather unfair situation.

My last example would be the people that come in pairs, two by two and knock on your door… I don’t need to elaborate on this as we all know of what group of people I mean. I have no interest in a faith that attempts to bully or preach me into their thinking. If I am feeling religious, I will be sure to pop in and visit the many temples/churches that are spread across our land and make my own mind up.

I think religious or not we are all entitled to choose, which ever way that choice takes us, and the thing that should be taught more than anything else at all is... tolerance of others. I have had friends over the years of many denominations and enjoyed all of their company, and I hope they have enjoyed mine.

janhedger Posted - 27/07/2011 : 12:47:54
Take your point Chris and it's a good one and well put across. It is clearer to me now,
Thanks
Jan
Chris Green Posted - 27/07/2011 : 09:28:04
quote:
Originally posted by janhedger

I won't lie - I was having doubts about my continued involvement of FLOW, no doubts about my continued belief and support in FLOW, just my own personal involvement. Feeling slightly uncomfortable with new category of Faith, Philosophy etc and the tack it was taking and the airing of frank opinions through other parts of the forum. Not that I don't like a good debate or airing of opinions, I do - just wasn't sure if FLOW was the right place. Maybe I am naive and it is the way forward? Opening out FLOW.
This copied e mail settled my mind completely - we are 'there' for those who need us and our writing/poetry - FLOW's main aims being achieved. Thanks for posting this Mac - good to see you posting again - missed you! I know about a busy working life - but it's nothing compared to those laying their lives on the line in their working life, everyday or those struggling with the demons of the after effects. Let the poetry always be the main speaker - it can talk louder than any of us!
Jan
Also posted in what you get from this site



Hi Jan,

Glad you are staying, I started this area in order to separate out stuff that was not directly to do with FLOW and everyone can choose to use or to ignore this section.

Although 'faith' is in the title it was not my intention to make this into a religious group but rather to tackle some of the side issues that being a poet and writer brings to the for, for instance, campaigns for poets in captivity, should a soldier have a moral attitude when engaged in war, what relevence does the Nuremberg Judgement of sir Lawrence Jeffrey have and so on.

Equally, there are always people who want more from a forum than that place was originally designed for - we have 3 choices:

1. stay small, unique and dedicated to the founding principles;
2. do nothing and let anarchy take place and be in a constant battle with new people who do not share the ideals of the founders and do not see why they cannot post anything anywhere;
3. say ok, it is time to move on a little and to provide a little bit of expansion and to question what it is that we believe in not just as poets but in everything that we are.
Chris Green Posted - 27/07/2011 : 09:10:43
quote:
Originally posted by Mac

Now I know that religion is a starter of wars, arguments and can be the terminator of relationships, but I have myself been struggling with this one for some time, around the 27th of July 2009 to be precise and ever since. With my lovely Mum now in hospital suffering at the hands of some unknown ailment my doubt just deepens.

I am wondering if you wish to share certain things....
Do you believe in God?


I do not believe in an ethereal personification.
quote:

Which one?


Any.
quote:

Why?


I think that a lot of people need to have simple answers to complex questions; they need to believe that their short lifespan will extend beyond death and they need to feel part of a greater all-encompassing society beyond their own small world.
quote:

Why not?


I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god or gods and philosophically-speaking one should adopt the agnostic stance.

However, I spent a long time digging into the past and I have some skill at reading dead languages and came to the conclusion that the modern form of the one god hypothesis was based directly on Mithras (which is to be found in the later Roman empire and earlier on Crete, Malta and the southern Mediterranean) and on Amun from Egypt, notably Amun Hotep through to Tut Ank Hamun (Tootan Carman in the modern idium). There are 12 earlier religions with the whoel gamut of substantialisms.

The substantials of modern (one god) theism are: virgin birth, triple godhead, dying to take on the sins of the followers, wine becomes the blood and food the flesh as part of the sacrament (or blood offering), healings and miracles, teachings, prophecies, histories and the mysteries.

Where the Mithras godhead is concerned this was the system of belief in Rome under the Emperor Constantine immediately prior to Christianity and all that is modern theism was the same under Mithras even down to the Latin term for the head chao was 'The Pope' pronounced 'poppa' and this is the title in Italian for the current incumbent head of the Catholic Church.
quote:

Any additional comments?


I believe in a living universe in that as small as I look I see life, deep into the sea and deep into the earth there is life, in the extremes of this world there is life, I look outwsards and we are a small sub atomic particle (planet) in a molecule (solar system) in a complex of molecules (galaxy) in an organ (universe) in a multitude of universes. I see an organic form on a massive scale.

My body comes from the tiny pieces of this universe and for a while we are me and then they return to the universe. For a while I exist and I am satisfied and happy and I do not seek immortality because that is a path of vanity and thoughtlessness, nor do I seek to be some form of thoughtless moron permanently requiring a set of rules in order to be 'good'.

I have a brain and this lets me think and to act, or not to act, as I decide, ergo I have authority in my decisions and I have responsibility for what I have done or left undone. This is taking responsibility for yourself.

Religionists would have us believe that we have no responsibility and no authority but rather should follow the tenets of a book, written when the requirements of strict accuracy and provable statements werenot the most important aspects of a piece of writing.

frankly, any histories/religious books written before 1850 and I would class it as imagination or hearsay.

Hearsay is not allowable in a modern court.

As the laws of this country created a more modern stance on the laws of evidence so this came to be applied across the social study areas of history and such like.

On the science and Mathematical front it has been true to say that repeatable observable facts are what has determined advances and this has been true through the alchemists and mathematicians - have a look at Euclid some time and you will find the basis for all modern mathematics add in the accountancy methods of the early arabs and a large dash of Sir Isaac Newton from his Principia Mathematica and we have arithmatic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, statistics, dynamics, chemistry, physics, engineering, etc.

Religion as a form of belief is fine as long as it is not imposed on people and as long as you choose to become a member as an informed and competent adult.

Indeed the social and welfare sides of the many churches is a fine and wonderful aspect of society.

Where it fails is where political ideologies, ambition, and the unholy negatives take power and religion is used as a weapon - 'go forth and kill these people who do not believe that the disabled slug of notsparrin did save a gravy boat from falling off the table'.

I am in favour of some wars but not when they ar started in the name of a god or religion and not when a politician (blair) turns round and says that god says it was OK to start a war with Iraq.

janhedger Posted - 25/07/2011 : 21:19:50
In addition to above posting - I am quite comfortable with being open with my new found Christianity - My husband led me gently in, to discover it by myself - neither of us preach or condemn anyone for their own beliefs. We are just very happy being who we are with our faith. For me, it has been liberating after years of unsettlement, judgement and of 'not belonging'.
A piece of his own writing - in Nigel's bible says ' Forty years my way got me nowhere, so what have I got to lose - try it his way' So I am.
No it's not perfect, but I am more content with myself and those around me - some of the strong emotional pull of words that I wrote, have for now left me, will they return - I don't know - maybe they were my own demons, such as in my short story An Unexpected Weekend posted here on stories.http://www.forcesstories.com/storydetails.asp?ID=167 Maybe I don't need to write them anymore, with the same intensity? I still want to write 'deeper' poetry, maybe when it returns, I can be more objective. Incidentally before becoming a Christian - I wrote this piece in response to a Sally Gardner workshop question - What Does God Meant To Me? I still stand by this http://www.forcesstories.com/storydetails.asp?ID=45
Don't think we all condemn non- believers - we are all just mere individuals. My individualism is in being a Christian
Jan
janhedger Posted - 25/07/2011 : 19:02:09
I won't lie - I was having doubts about my continued involvement of FLOW, no doubts about my continued belief and support in FLOW, just my own personal involvement. Feeling slightly uncomfortable with new category of Faith, Philosophy etc and the tack it was taking and the airing of frank opinions through other parts of the forum. Not that I don't like a good debate or airing of opinions, I do - just wasn't sure if FLOW was the right place. Maybe I am naive and it is the way forward? Opening out FLOW.
This copied e mail settled my mind completely - we are 'there' for those who need us and our writing/poetry - FLOW's main aims being achieved. Thanks for posting this Mac - good to see you posting again - missed you! I know about a busy working life - but it's nothing compared to those laying their lives on the line in their working life, everyday or those struggling with the demons of the after effects. Let the poetry always be the main speaker - it can talk louder than any of us!
Jan
Also posted in what you get from this site
Tom Mcgreevy Posted - 25/07/2011 : 00:22:16
The Hospital Doctors pronounced me dead at 9 weeks old, my family were all called to the hospital, and a Catholic priest read the last rites over me. ( I am a Catholic ). Then I came back to life and at nearly 62 years old I am still here ( even after Cancer etc ). A Miricle ?. Who knows !
Tom
Krazus Posted - 24/07/2011 : 12:48:27
I think its a good opportunity to have a frank discussion, and explain our individual beliefs in a pleasant manner, without one side trying to persuade the other.
To bea ble to express my own feelings on faith without having a load of believers calling for my burning is rather refreshing.
long may it continue
sherlock Posted - 22/07/2011 : 21:29:53
I have always thought that the greatest leader of men was Moses (if he existed). Leading a mass of people with different beliefs and various Gods he preented them with a code which exists to this day-namely the ten commandments.
He must have realised that few of his followers could read or even recognise the written word so he produced tablets of stone with scratchings on which he proclaimed was written by the one God and hey presto a new order was created and he could leaad with the minimum of trouble-- great wisdom and brilliant leadership

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