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Mac
Administrator



United Kingdom

1631 Posts

Posted - 21/07/2011 :  19:24:48  Show Profile  Visit Mac's Homepage Send Mac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now I know that religion is a starter of wars, arguments and can be the terminator of relationships, but I have myself been struggling with this one for some time, around the 27th of July 2009 to be precise and ever since. With my lovely Mum now in hospital suffering at the hands of some unknown ailment my doubt just deepens.

I am wondering if you wish to share certain things....
Do you believe in God?
Which one?
Why?
Why not?
Any additional comments?

We are blessed in this community by having a wonderfully diverse membership in their thinking and so hopefully this will be of interest to many and a threat to none.

Dream, Hope, Believe, Do

sherlock
Administrator

nottingham
United Kingdom


367 Posts

Posted - 21/07/2011 :  21:58:36  Show Profile Send sherlock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Mac
When I was a young child I fervently believed in the concept of God and everything I read in the bible.At the age of sixteen I began to question what was going on around me and how God could allow certain things to happen eg. thousands dying in floods in Pakistan, mass murders, The Biafran tragedy etc.. If God created heaven and earth and nothing existed before that then God created the Devil and all the evil things associated with him. If God is the good force then he also created His opposite and opposing force (we all know this a basic principle of the universe----don't we?)
So as I grew older I came to the conclusion that the big bang theory was far more plausible and natural selection made us what we are. And yet I still believe in the Ten Commandments or at least the reason behind them . I still live by the basic teachings of the Bible only now I look on it as a manual for life and how to conduct yourself.
Rightly or wrongly that is my "belief" Don Holmes
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Krazus
Member



North Lincs
United Kingdom


372 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2011 :  00:25:16  Show Profile Send Krazus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Do you believe in God? Nope, not one

Which one? None of them

Why? Because I am a man of science and reasoning

Why not? because there is no evidence whatsoever to substantiate any kind of all powerful deity.

Any additional comments? I have been told by vehement religious people that how can i be right and 95% of the earths population be wrong, My answer is this... all of the planet at one time believed it was a disc, and not long after still thought we were the centre of the universe and the sun and stars revolved around us. They were wrong then and a few brave souls proved it with hard scientific fact... So just because collectively a vast swathe of the planets population still believe in writings from ancient fiction writers which was used to control said masses, doesn’t mean I have to now.
I mean some of them still believe the planet is only 4000 yrs old, that god created it and everything else in 7 days. I am constantly stunned at what people are willing to blindly believe.

And the worst forms of this mass belief are the faiths that actively try to Coerce people into their faith, I mean the ones knocking on your door, the ones clamering for your money, be it for a 'collection' for the church (The place full of gold, silver and comfortable living standards) or work people up into a fever on a stage or tv leeching money from poor people that have better need of it and should have more brains.

My last point is this, how many violent events and injustices have been performed in the name of a god and religion over time... religious slaughter has claimed more victims that almost any other blight on this land, and continues to do so.

But hey this is just my thoughts on a very complicated issue.

if your looking at the stars, you will miss the manholes
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Mac
Administrator



United Kingdom

1631 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2011 :  16:37:07  Show Profile  Visit Mac's Homepage Send Mac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I use a quote by John Milton in most (if not all) of my training courses and it is this

"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much arguing, much writing, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making."

The comments in this post are merely our thoughts and opinions, we are entitled to them, in fact it is a healthy thing to share as we learn from them.

Sherlock, it seems we think in a similar vein. One moment I have serious trouble believing in god, then the next I am praying to God!

I also take great comfort in talking to god on a regular basis and I have long believed that my faith (albeit dented) is something I could hardly do without, without hope and dreams what have we?

Dream, Hope, Believe, Do
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Sland
Member

United Kingdom

343 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2011 :  17:30:55  Show Profile Send Sland a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have never seen the point in religious discussions; neither "side" will sway the other.

Rgds,
Mike
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Mac
Administrator



United Kingdom

1631 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2011 :  20:44:01  Show Profile  Visit Mac's Homepage Send Mac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good point Sland and I hope my post has not given the idea that this is meant to sway anyone anywhere. As for sides, I hope we have none. I am just struggling with my own thoughts and thinking at the moment and fancied a chat; I am keen to hear others thoughts and opinions to hopefully give me some answers too.

I was brought up in the Catholic faith and have definitely not been to good at keeping it but I tend (a bit like Sherlock) to live by my own moral code. In all honesty, even that has fallen on the rocks a few times so this angel has dirty wings

Dream, Hope, Believe, Do
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sherlock
Administrator

nottingham
United Kingdom


367 Posts

Posted - 22/07/2011 :  21:29:53  Show Profile Send sherlock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always thought that the greatest leader of men was Moses (if he existed). Leading a mass of people with different beliefs and various Gods he preented them with a code which exists to this day-namely the ten commandments.
He must have realised that few of his followers could read or even recognise the written word so he produced tablets of stone with scratchings on which he proclaimed was written by the one God and hey presto a new order was created and he could leaad with the minimum of trouble-- great wisdom and brilliant leadership
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Krazus
Member



North Lincs
United Kingdom


372 Posts

Posted - 24/07/2011 :  12:48:27  Show Profile Send Krazus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think its a good opportunity to have a frank discussion, and explain our individual beliefs in a pleasant manner, without one side trying to persuade the other.
To bea ble to express my own feelings on faith without having a load of believers calling for my burning is rather refreshing.
long may it continue

if your looking at the stars, you will miss the manholes
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Tom Mcgreevy
Administrator



Ex-English Army ( Ex-pat Geordie ), Berkshire
United Kingdom


4098 Posts

Posted - 25/07/2011 :  00:22:16  Show Profile  Visit Tom Mcgreevy's Homepage Send Tom Mcgreevy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Hospital Doctors pronounced me dead at 9 weeks old, my family were all called to the hospital, and a Catholic priest read the last rites over me. ( I am a Catholic ). Then I came back to life and at nearly 62 years old I am still here ( even after Cancer etc ). A Miricle ?. Who knows !
Tom

http://im-a-soldier-get-me-out-of-here.weebly.com


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janhedger
Administrator



United Kingdom

4230 Posts

Posted - 25/07/2011 :  19:02:09  Show Profile  Visit janhedger's Homepage  Send janhedger an AOL message Send janhedger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I won't lie - I was having doubts about my continued involvement of FLOW, no doubts about my continued belief and support in FLOW, just my own personal involvement. Feeling slightly uncomfortable with new category of Faith, Philosophy etc and the tack it was taking and the airing of frank opinions through other parts of the forum. Not that I don't like a good debate or airing of opinions, I do - just wasn't sure if FLOW was the right place. Maybe I am naive and it is the way forward? Opening out FLOW.
This copied e mail settled my mind completely - we are 'there' for those who need us and our writing/poetry - FLOW's main aims being achieved. Thanks for posting this Mac - good to see you posting again - missed you! I know about a busy working life - but it's nothing compared to those laying their lives on the line in their working life, everyday or those struggling with the demons of the after effects. Let the poetry always be the main speaker - it can talk louder than any of us!
Jan
Also posted in what you get from this site

We cannot stop, because if a single one of these men were taken and shot, that would be our fault - Edith Cavell
http://www.janscreativewriting.co.uk/ -updated Aug 17 - with new poems/photo's - video interviews - see PowerPoint slide shows, audio files & my books.
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janhedger
Administrator



United Kingdom

4230 Posts

Posted - 25/07/2011 :  21:19:50  Show Profile  Visit janhedger's Homepage  Send janhedger an AOL message Send janhedger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In addition to above posting - I am quite comfortable with being open with my new found Christianity - My husband led me gently in, to discover it by myself - neither of us preach or condemn anyone for their own beliefs. We are just very happy being who we are with our faith. For me, it has been liberating after years of unsettlement, judgement and of 'not belonging'.
A piece of his own writing - in Nigel's bible says ' Forty years my way got me nowhere, so what have I got to lose - try it his way' So I am.
No it's not perfect, but I am more content with myself and those around me - some of the strong emotional pull of words that I wrote, have for now left me, will they return - I don't know - maybe they were my own demons, such as in my short story An Unexpected Weekend posted here on stories.http://www.forcesstories.com/storydetails.asp?ID=167 Maybe I don't need to write them anymore, with the same intensity? I still want to write 'deeper' poetry, maybe when it returns, I can be more objective. Incidentally before becoming a Christian - I wrote this piece in response to a Sally Gardner workshop question - What Does God Meant To Me? I still stand by this http://www.forcesstories.com/storydetails.asp?ID=45
Don't think we all condemn non- believers - we are all just mere individuals. My individualism is in being a Christian
Jan

We cannot stop, because if a single one of these men were taken and shot, that would be our fault - Edith Cavell
http://www.janscreativewriting.co.uk/ -updated Aug 17 - with new poems/photo's - video interviews - see PowerPoint slide shows, audio files & my books.
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Chris Green
Member



Newark-upon-Trent
United Kingdom


2301 Posts

Posted - 27/07/2011 :  09:10:43  Show Profile  Visit Chris Green's Homepage Send Chris Green a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mac

Now I know that religion is a starter of wars, arguments and can be the terminator of relationships, but I have myself been struggling with this one for some time, around the 27th of July 2009 to be precise and ever since. With my lovely Mum now in hospital suffering at the hands of some unknown ailment my doubt just deepens.

I am wondering if you wish to share certain things....
Do you believe in God?


I do not believe in an ethereal personification.
quote:

Which one?


Any.
quote:

Why?


I think that a lot of people need to have simple answers to complex questions; they need to believe that their short lifespan will extend beyond death and they need to feel part of a greater all-encompassing society beyond their own small world.
quote:

Why not?


I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god or gods and philosophically-speaking one should adopt the agnostic stance.

However, I spent a long time digging into the past and I have some skill at reading dead languages and came to the conclusion that the modern form of the one god hypothesis was based directly on Mithras (which is to be found in the later Roman empire and earlier on Crete, Malta and the southern Mediterranean) and on Amun from Egypt, notably Amun Hotep through to Tut Ank Hamun (Tootan Carman in the modern idium). There are 12 earlier religions with the whoel gamut of substantialisms.

The substantials of modern (one god) theism are: virgin birth, triple godhead, dying to take on the sins of the followers, wine becomes the blood and food the flesh as part of the sacrament (or blood offering), healings and miracles, teachings, prophecies, histories and the mysteries.

Where the Mithras godhead is concerned this was the system of belief in Rome under the Emperor Constantine immediately prior to Christianity and all that is modern theism was the same under Mithras even down to the Latin term for the head chao was 'The Pope' pronounced 'poppa' and this is the title in Italian for the current incumbent head of the Catholic Church.
quote:

Any additional comments?


I believe in a living universe in that as small as I look I see life, deep into the sea and deep into the earth there is life, in the extremes of this world there is life, I look outwsards and we are a small sub atomic particle (planet) in a molecule (solar system) in a complex of molecules (galaxy) in an organ (universe) in a multitude of universes. I see an organic form on a massive scale.

My body comes from the tiny pieces of this universe and for a while we are me and then they return to the universe. For a while I exist and I am satisfied and happy and I do not seek immortality because that is a path of vanity and thoughtlessness, nor do I seek to be some form of thoughtless moron permanently requiring a set of rules in order to be 'good'.

I have a brain and this lets me think and to act, or not to act, as I decide, ergo I have authority in my decisions and I have responsibility for what I have done or left undone. This is taking responsibility for yourself.

Religionists would have us believe that we have no responsibility and no authority but rather should follow the tenets of a book, written when the requirements of strict accuracy and provable statements werenot the most important aspects of a piece of writing.

frankly, any histories/religious books written before 1850 and I would class it as imagination or hearsay.

Hearsay is not allowable in a modern court.

As the laws of this country created a more modern stance on the laws of evidence so this came to be applied across the social study areas of history and such like.

On the science and Mathematical front it has been true to say that repeatable observable facts are what has determined advances and this has been true through the alchemists and mathematicians - have a look at Euclid some time and you will find the basis for all modern mathematics add in the accountancy methods of the early arabs and a large dash of Sir Isaac Newton from his Principia Mathematica and we have arithmatic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, calculus, statistics, dynamics, chemistry, physics, engineering, etc.

Religion as a form of belief is fine as long as it is not imposed on people and as long as you choose to become a member as an informed and competent adult.

Indeed the social and welfare sides of the many churches is a fine and wonderful aspect of society.

Where it fails is where political ideologies, ambition, and the unholy negatives take power and religion is used as a weapon - 'go forth and kill these people who do not believe that the disabled slug of notsparrin did save a gravy boat from falling off the table'.

I am in favour of some wars but not when they ar started in the name of a god or religion and not when a politician (blair) turns round and says that god says it was OK to start a war with Iraq.


Regards,
Chris Green
frankgreen2@virginmedia.com
http://chrisgreen.weebly.com/

Service before self

'A Poppy in My Buttonhole' available now SEE:
http://www.rossendalebooks.co.uk/
http://www.lulu.com/content/2791550

My next book will be "The Crcodile Chronicles" and is projected to be launched 2015 or a quarter past eight in time for Christmas.
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Chris Green
Member



Newark-upon-Trent
United Kingdom


2301 Posts

Posted - 27/07/2011 :  09:28:04  Show Profile  Visit Chris Green's Homepage Send Chris Green a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by janhedger

I won't lie - I was having doubts about my continued involvement of FLOW, no doubts about my continued belief and support in FLOW, just my own personal involvement. Feeling slightly uncomfortable with new category of Faith, Philosophy etc and the tack it was taking and the airing of frank opinions through other parts of the forum. Not that I don't like a good debate or airing of opinions, I do - just wasn't sure if FLOW was the right place. Maybe I am naive and it is the way forward? Opening out FLOW.
This copied e mail settled my mind completely - we are 'there' for those who need us and our writing/poetry - FLOW's main aims being achieved. Thanks for posting this Mac - good to see you posting again - missed you! I know about a busy working life - but it's nothing compared to those laying their lives on the line in their working life, everyday or those struggling with the demons of the after effects. Let the poetry always be the main speaker - it can talk louder than any of us!
Jan
Also posted in what you get from this site



Hi Jan,

Glad you are staying, I started this area in order to separate out stuff that was not directly to do with FLOW and everyone can choose to use or to ignore this section.

Although 'faith' is in the title it was not my intention to make this into a religious group but rather to tackle some of the side issues that being a poet and writer brings to the for, for instance, campaigns for poets in captivity, should a soldier have a moral attitude when engaged in war, what relevence does the Nuremberg Judgement of sir Lawrence Jeffrey have and so on.

Equally, there are always people who want more from a forum than that place was originally designed for - we have 3 choices:

1. stay small, unique and dedicated to the founding principles;
2. do nothing and let anarchy take place and be in a constant battle with new people who do not share the ideals of the founders and do not see why they cannot post anything anywhere;
3. say ok, it is time to move on a little and to provide a little bit of expansion and to question what it is that we believe in not just as poets but in everything that we are.

Regards,
Chris Green
frankgreen2@virginmedia.com
http://chrisgreen.weebly.com/

Service before self

'A Poppy in My Buttonhole' available now SEE:
http://www.rossendalebooks.co.uk/
http://www.lulu.com/content/2791550

My next book will be "The Crcodile Chronicles" and is projected to be launched 2015 or a quarter past eight in time for Christmas.
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janhedger
Administrator



United Kingdom

4230 Posts

Posted - 27/07/2011 :  12:47:54  Show Profile  Visit janhedger's Homepage  Send janhedger an AOL message Send janhedger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Take your point Chris and it's a good one and well put across. It is clearer to me now,
Thanks
Jan

We cannot stop, because if a single one of these men were taken and shot, that would be our fault - Edith Cavell
http://www.janscreativewriting.co.uk/ -updated Aug 17 - with new poems/photo's - video interviews - see PowerPoint slide shows, audio files & my books.
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Krazus
Member



North Lincs
United Kingdom


372 Posts

Posted - 27/07/2011 :  19:47:42  Show Profile Send Krazus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Jan,

its excellent that you will continue to enjoy FLOW. I think this 'expansion' is a good idea, and im very impressed with everyones expressions so far.
I think its excellent that you and your hubby have your beliefs, we are all entitled to our own way of thinking.
My own comment on the belivers wanting to burn me was not aimed at all believers of any faith, and i hope it wasnt taken that way, rather on a select few i have come across who are indeed very forceful in denouncing the 'unfaithful'

If i may be able to elaborate a little, my fathers family (all brothers and one sister) all married Catholics except my father. Now when I go to see them a particular Aunt and her son will insist on calling me by my full 'Christian' name of Christopher, which only my wife and mother use when I have not exactly shone in their eyes. But no amount of polite request to not use the full name and to reduce to Chris will do any good, and I get the threatening comments of going to hell for not believing, and being told my aunt who took her own life will be for ever in purgatory.

My second 'example' is that while serving in the RAF and on my trade training, once a week was set aside for religious 'study', which if you were catholic, consisted of going and sitting with a friendly nun with coffee/tea and biscuits having a good chin wag. however everyone else what ever their denomination, even Atheists, had to sit through an hour video of Simon Mayo spouting off about god, now for me it felt like brain washing and a rather unfair situation.

My last example would be the people that come in pairs, two by two and knock on your door… I don’t need to elaborate on this as we all know of what group of people I mean. I have no interest in a faith that attempts to bully or preach me into their thinking. If I am feeling religious, I will be sure to pop in and visit the many temples/churches that are spread across our land and make my own mind up.

I think religious or not we are all entitled to choose, which ever way that choice takes us, and the thing that should be taught more than anything else at all is... tolerance of others. I have had friends over the years of many denominations and enjoyed all of their company, and I hope they have enjoyed mine.


if your looking at the stars, you will miss the manholes
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taffy
Member



Oswestry Shropshire.
United Kingdom


2073 Posts

Posted - 27/07/2011 :  20:09:13  Show Profile  Visit taffy's Homepage Send taffy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello, One word that many religeons seem not to consider or at least rarely mention is EMPATHY i think this word covers most of my feelings on the subject of religeon. taffy
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